Transcript
Teesta Setalvad: Very very good and cold evening comrade Hannan Mollah. It is a very cold day in Delhi now and we have the privilege of talking to comrade Hannan Mollah: eight-time Member of Parliament from Bengal, and one of the key leaders of the All India Kisan Sabha (AIKS) and part of the farmers protest that has been relentlessly going on now, since 2nd December. We have seen the water cannons being showered on the farmers in the cold of the Delhi winter. We saw the roads being dug up. Comrade Hannah Mollah good evening. Is the farmer’s movement facing a sarkari stalement?
Mr. Mollah: Good evening you are correct the stalemate is created by gov’t. The gov’t is actually not ready to solve the problem. They want to linger it and linger it so that the farmers get tired and they go away. Plan-fully they are doing this conspiracy. Any democratic gov’t, to solve the problem, will try to listen to the voice of the people, what is the problem and how can we solve, but that is not the concern of the govt. They are totally against the farmers and they are determined to change the character of the Indian agriculture. It is farmer-based agriculture they want to make it corporate-based agriculture. The basic change they want to do as far as their policy and they are determined to do that and because of that they are not ready to talk.
Teesta Setalvad: The farmer’s movement has repeatedly said that clause by clause critique the laws. Clause by clause all the laws have been critiqued and yet you find the gov’t is abusing the movement, trying to detract the movement, trying to malign the movement. Where the part the gov’t is doing, how much public money is wasted on this kind of propaganda do you feel?
Mr. Mollah: They are doing. Their only propaganda is spending huge amount of money only when farmers issue comes they talk about that there is no fund. But for other work they have enough fund. They are misusing and using. So the question is farmers are they are saying form the beginning that clause by clause discussion, and we said in the beginning first meeting first means date by the agenda. Why you have called us? Any meeting there is a specific agenda. We ask where is your agenda? There is no answer. Till today there is no answer.
We told that for 7 months we are praying for one demand. We don’t even have two or three demands because they can shift from one to two to side line the first demand. We said it that other demands are there and we said it later on. But this movement f or 7 months farmers are fighting only on one demand the repeal of this three anti-farmer acts and bill because these acts and bill are the death warrant for the agriculture and agriculture farming community of India and we understood it bit by bit. What is good for farmers they do not know. They are engaged in this work for generations. They know what is good or bad for them. They not understand but realised it that these three acts and bill are hazardous to the existence of the farming community and because of that they are so adamant in this struggle. But gov’t is underestimating that. They cannot guess agenda of the farmers. They are something ordinary (mamuli) is there we will take time and time and one day they will get tired and they will leave it. But farmers are not in that mood. The govt failed to understand the mood of the farmers.
Teesta Setalvad: We have seen the kind of abuse khalisthani naksha like terrorist, now today you are the Bihar agricultural minister. Amerendra Pratap Singh using the word dalal for the farmer which is like middle man and you find the at Bihar is the one state where the farmers are the most venerable. As senior journalist Ravish Kumar had said that after the MSP was scrapped in Bihar 2006 and the farmers have been opened up to the court and court market force. You find that the Bihar farmer is completely impoverished. Why media is not showcasing the condition of the Bihar farmer.
Mr. Mollah: See that is clear example, Ater withdrawal of this institution marketing system from Bihar, the state continuously deteriorated. Lakhs and lakhs of people go to other state for work. Farmers are the worst sufferer in this state because of the withdraw of this institution. Unfortunately, the BJP ministers are blaming the farmers. The dalal, who are the dalal of Adani Ambani. Their Prime Minister is the real dalal of Adano-Ambani, and last three days before they said in the Chamber of Commerce meeting, these three agricultural acts, these are for facilitating the corporate houses. It is nothing silent. Everything is said. He is working as an agent of the corporate houses, national and international corporate houses. He is bound by them. He has no power to go against them. So they are blaming the movement by using this type of abusive words against their annadata, those who are working day and night to feed the nation.
Once we survived with American wheat, but now our go-downs are overflowing with the farmer’s labour. They do not get the benefit. Many of them starve but they are working to feed the Indian people. They are doing it successfully in this Coronavirus situation when all the production sector is reduced and there is no growth. Every sector is diminished. Only in agriculture in spite of all this difficulty their production increased. But instead of becoming grateful to this community, they are calling them dalal. They trying to finish them with this conspiracy. I think since independence such an anti-farmer gov’t never came in India. Other gov’ts also, but this govt is worst among others. They are known as the enemy of the farmers.
Teesta Setalvad: No, I just wanted to take this kind of amazing movement that has been generated outside Delhi border, the Tikri order, the Ghaziabad border. How does the agricultural worker, the landless peasants and the tenant cultivator gain politically from the movement that you have been collectively launched? Because you have trying to build the bhoomi adhikar andolan and all sort of alliances. So I want you take a step further that how will the agricultural labour politically gain in terms of his or her demands.
Mr. Mollah: You know, they are also with us. The agricultural workers union, the tenant cultivators union. They are also with the movement because they understood that if the farmers are finished, where they will go? They have understood that their life is related with the farmers and if land goes to the corporate houses and farmers became slave of the corporates, then the slavery of this poor section will be much more. Especially the essential commodity act, the area where these people will be destroyed because under the three aspect of this act the farmer, many things 22 articles have been removed from the list of essentials. That means those are not essential. If not essential govt has no duty. You get or not you die or not. No duty. No essential commodities are there.
Secondly, when there is a crisis, the provision was there that the gov’t would intervein in the market. So that loss of price could be made up by gov’t intervention and farmers could get some benefit out of that.
Thirdly after purchasing from the farmers it is taken and kept in the FCI go-downs and it was distributed through public distribution system and it will benefit crores and crores of people and even section of farmers also live on ration i.e ration system that was there but they are destroying FCI. Since Swaminathan Committee report came, they gradually decided to eliminate the FCI and because of that goes the public distribution system will be finished and that will create the starvation situation for the agricultural workers, poor peasants, marginal peasants, even the poorer section of the farmers. They will suffer.
Fourthly the Essential Commodity Act to check hoarding the mother of corruption and black market. But at that time the small hoarders are there 10 ton-5 ton, they would hoard but by that they would make profit by creating artificial scarcity but now Adani-Ambani will hoard billion and billion tons. Entire production will be controlled by two three people and then they will create artificial scarcity and increase the price. Super profit they will go with that. So hoarding because of their interest hoarding limit has been removed. So anybody these people can hoard as much as they can. This aspect of the essential commodity act is detrimental to the interest of the common people to the ration consumer, to the lower section of the people and poor section of the farmers also. The urban people they live on ration system. These acts are not only suffering for farmers but the entire population will suffer in course of time.
Teesta Setalvad: Comrade Mollah the AIKS charter, you brought up the whole issues of land rights as well. Land rights is also being touched upon because eventually it also got controlled autonomy and land rights and all that. How will the land rights of various sections eventually get ensured if an alternate political vision comes out?
Mr. Mollah: Our main demand is land reform and since independent struggle, their leaders declared after the struggle after the independence they will institute land reforms. Unfortunately, every state passed land acts but these acts were full of loopholes. Through those loopholes land was not available for the gov’t to distribute among the landless. So only West Bengal, Kerala, Tripura and J&K, there were no land reform, and land was captured legally or illegally by name or by other’s name. They concealed the land and it remained in the hands of the richer section. Land reform is one of the major demand since independence but that you have done. So in a proper alternative policy, we us we have to complete the land reform but now we are fighting for and we do not want to divert our demand by any other issues. Then this movement build up with such wider unity on certain issues. We do not want to divert this movement to other issue. We have other issue and demands of the farmers one by we can take but this time we want the repeal of the CA act anyway i.e our need.
Teesta Setalvad: Day before yesterday we find that from all over the country, we are seeing that there is always more solidarity coming. There is ghorikuljatra starting from Maharashtra yesterday. You find from the Rajasthan some people are starting, Karnataka some people are coming. So we see the evidence of this movement building up. Do you feel that it will encompass also the repellent of the 42 labour laws and into the court and court labour bill which the worker unions called the company court bill where the working-class Indians are also being completely shunned of the rights that they fought for hundred years; 8-hour working day and healthy working environment and all the security of the tripartite system of negotiation all of that has been repealed away again in the pandemic period. So do you feel that workers also might industrial workers, unorganised sector might also come out in support.
Mr. Mollah: They should come. We discussed it with the leaders. They said our strike was there on the demand. I said that only by one-day strike you cannot force the gov’t. You have to build up your massive, continuous, stiff battle against this government policy as we are doing it in the farming community and that these labour law actually are company code and all 44 labour laws repealed.
Whatever benefit labour got in 75 years since independence all have been taken away and companies have been given free hand to run their industry as they like and workers are totally thrown in the mercy of company so that same thing as farmers are three acts are death nail for the farming community these four labour code is also another type of death nail for the working class. So they are also realising and fighting it but nature of fight struggles should be changed. How they will do it their planning and if there is a massive working-class struggle all over the country and then farmers movement and workers movement come together and we can merge in a biggest class struggle in the history of our country.
तीस्ता जी : कुछ सवाल हम लोग हिंदी में लेंगे कॉमरेड हन्नान मोल्लाह जी, जिस तरह का जबरदस्त संघर्ष जो किसानों ने दिखाया है, एक तरह की एकता दिखाई है। बहुत सालों के बाद इस तरह नज़र आ रहा है, और सरकार तो इसको बदनाम करने में तुली हुई है। आप किस तरह का संदेश देना चाहेंगे, बाकी भारत या हिंदुस्तानी वासियों को, कि वो किस तरह इस आंदोलन को सपोर्ट देंगे।
मिस्टर मोल्लाह : बाकी भारत वासियों के लिए मेरा निवेदन यही है, कि आप जब एक दाना अपने मुँह में डालते हैं, याद करना कि यह किसान अन्नदाता का मेहनत किया हुआ फसल है. जो आपका अन्नदाता है, आपको भी जानना चाहिए उसके घर पे अन्न नहीं है. ४ लाख किसान ख़ुदकुशी किया है, कर्ज़ा के बोझ पे, समस्या के बोझ पे, फसल का दाम न मिलने के कारण, सरकार का खेत किसान विरोधी नीतियों के कारण, आज ४ लाख से भी ज्यादा किसान ख़ुदकुशी किया है। आप अन्न दाता जब ख़ुदकुशी करता है, तो आपके आँख में अगर एक बून्द आंसू भी आए तो यह ईमानदारी होगा, मानविकता होगा, देश को खिला पिला के ज़िंदा रखने का काम कर रहा है किसान। हमारा ज़िंदगी खतरे में है और इस परिस्थिति में हम अपील करता है कि पूरा देश वासियों को, जो बाकी कुछ प्रोडक्शन होता है उसके बिना आप रह सकता है, पर किसान जो प्रोडक्ट देता है उसके बिना आप रह नहीं सकता। ज़िंदगी का सवाल है, इसलिए इसका दूसरा किसी और प्रोडक्शन के साथ तुलना नहीं हो सकता, क्योंकि यह बेसिक चीज़ है जीने के लिए। किसान पर जो सरकार ज़ुल्म कर रहा है, अत्याचार कर रहा है इसके खिलाफ आवाज़ उठाना आम जनता का फ़र्ज़ बनता है। इसलिए हम अपील करते हैं, कि आप अपना अन्नदाता को बचाएंगे तो आपका अन्न का निश्चयता रहेगा, यह आपको सोचना पड़ेगा। इसीलिए हम अपील करेंगे कि हर अन्नदाता का मदद कीजिए समर्थन कीजिए उसका दुःख दर्द को समझने का कोशिश कीजिए, उसके पास सहानुभूति से खड़े रहो। छोटे दुकानदार, छात्र, महिलाएं सब हमें समर्थन कर रहे हैं, क्योंकि वो समझ रहे हैं कि किसान हमारा अन्नदाता है और वो सब से बड़ा साधन है, और इसीलिए उसको ज़िंदा रखना चाहिए। इसीलिए हम अपील करते है कि आप लोग हमारे इस आंदोलन को समर्थन कीजिए। सरकार हमारा आंदोलन जो तोड़ना चाहते हैं, आप सरकार के खिलाफ आंदोलन में आवाज़ उठायें। यह कल 23 तारीख हम अपील किया है देश वासियों को कि कल दोपहर का खाना आप मत खाओ। एक दिन के लिए हमारे लिए उपवास करो। दोपहर का खाना ना खाके अपना को कुछ दुःख दर्द प्यार है किसानों के लिए वो जताओ। आपका समर्थन से हम लड़ेंगे और जीतेंगे, यह उम्मीद हमारा है।
तीस्ता जी : ऐसी सरकार कभी आंदोलन देखी है क्या? जो सरकार बात चीत करने को ही तैयार न हो, बल्कि जब बात चीत का वक़्त है तब यह पूरे दूसरे राय में पूरे आंदोलन को डाइवर्ट करके गाली गलौच, अलग अलग गलत शब्द का इस्तेमाल हो रहा है, वो हम यहाँ पे रिपीट नहीं करना चाहते। मगर यह जो एक स्टेटमेंट सरकार ने मानकर रखा है, कि हम किसान संगठनों के साथ किसान आंदोलन के साथ, मुद्दों पे बात नहीं करेंगे और प्रोपगंडा और अपना दुष्प्रचार हम चालू रखेंगे। ऐसी कभी सरकार भारत में रही है क्या ?
मिस्टर मोल्लाह : भारत में बहुत जनवादी आंदोलन हुआ आज़ादी के बाद। मज़दूर का हुआ, मिडिल क्लास का हुआ, रेलवे का हुआ, लाइफ इन्शुरेंस का हुआ, टीचर प्रोफ़ेसर्स का, स्टूडेंट्स का हुआ…
तीस्ता जी : रेलवे स्ट्राइक
मिस्टर मोल्लाह : हां रेलवे का बहुत बड़ा हुआ। तो हर लड़ाई हम देखा, सत्तर साल में हज़ारों संघर्ष देखा। मगर संघर्ष में एक रास्ता निकाल ने का कोशिश हुआ। सरकार आखिर में बातचीत किया फिर एक सलाह मान लिया। जो किसान आंदोलन किया है उसके साथ सलाह मशवरा करके रास्ता निकालने का कोशिश किया। यह मानविक दृष्टिकोण से देखने का परंपरा हमारे देश में था। मगर जब से बीजेपी सरकार आया है इसका मानविक दृष्टिकोण ख़तम हो गया है। कोई मानविक दृष्टिकोण नहीं है। सरकार का एक कर्तव्य बनता है, लेकिन वो कर नहीं रहे है जान बूझ के यह झूठ बोल रहा है। पहले दिन से जब चर्चा शुरू हुआ हम तभी बोला था कि क्यों हम को बुलाया है? एजेंडा क्या है? कोई एजेंडा नहीं है। बिना एजेंडा का मीटिंग हो सकता है? खाली अपना बात सुनने के लिए बुला रहा है। अरे हम तुम्हारा गुलाम है क्या? तुम्हारा बात सुनेंगे बैठे बैठे। तुम्हारा बात तो हम सुन रहे है 9 महीना, 7 महीना से सुन रहे है। किसान खेती हमारे लिए एक जीवन धारा है और इस जीवन धारा को तुम ख़तम करने का कोशिश कर रहा है। परंपरा को ख़तम करने का कोशिश कर रहा है। खेती हमारा उत्पादन करके हमको ज़िन्दा रखने का साधन है। तुम जो हमारा है हक़, वो छीनने का कोशिश कर रहा है और हमारे हाथ से खेती छीन के अम्बानी को देने का कोशिश कर रहा है। यह जो परिस्थिति है, इसीलिए हम बोला सरकार संपूर्ण रूप से अडानी या अम्बानी का गुलामी करने के लिए प्रतिबद्ध है। वादा कर लिए उसके साथ। आलरेडी अडानी या अम्बानी गोडाउन करना शुरू कर लिया। उसका पैसा से सरकार बना था आज वापस देने का सवाल आ गया। इसीलिए सरकार जिस तरह कॉर्पोरेट के हित के लिए हमारा किसान के विरोधी जो भूमिका ले रहा है इसके कारण स्टेलमेट हो रहा है। हम चाहे तो हम अभी एक घंटा में टेलीफ़ोन करने गए तो हम चले जायेंगे चर्चा के लिए। हम इतना दूर क्यों दूर आए हैं? कि चर्चा करके कोई रास्ता निकलेगा। हम समझदार है हम रेडी है चर्चा के लिए, पर एजेंडा भी तो होना चाहिए। एजेंडा में ही तो चर्चा होगा। एजेंडा ले के चर्चा करेंगे तो हम तब ही जायेंगे। नहीं तो क्या चर्चा होता है? पांच–छे दिन चर्चा के नाम पे तमाशा हुआ है। यह किसान के साथ मज़ाक है। यह मज़ाक चर्चा नहीं है। सरकार किसान का जो गुस्सा, उसका जो आंदोलन, उसका जो दायरा था, इसको नाप नहीं पा रहा है। बीजेपी सरकार इसको आसानी से आंदोलन को तोड़ नहीं सकता, इसीलिए हम उम्मीद ले के लड़ेंगे। एक महीना हो गया, हम एक भी कोई छोटी मोटी घटना घटने नहीं दिया। ऊपर से यह लोग बदनाम कर रहे हैं, कभी बोलता है खालिश्तानी कभी बोलता है, पाकिस्तानी और नया बदनाम कर रहा है। मगर आज देश का जनता देख रहा है, कौन सच्चा है, और कौन झूठा है। इसीलिए ये झूठ का पर्दाफाश करने में जनता हमको मदद करे। किसान का दुःख दर्द समझे और बीजेपी सरकार जो नाम पे नाटक कर रहा है, इसको भी आप जनता के सामने एक्सपोज़ कीजिये।
तीस्ता जी : बहुत बहुत शुक्रिया और हम अपनी तरफ से दर्शकों को अपील करते हैं कि कम से कम कल २३ दिसंबर को दोपहर का खाना न खाएं। एक दिन उपवास सबको रखना चाहिए, और इस आंदोलन का समर्थन भारत वासियों को करना चाहिए। बहुत बहुत शुक्रिया हन्नान मोल्लाह जी। अगर आप कुछ कहना चाहते हैं तो कह सकते है।
मिस्टर मोल्लाह : थैंक यू
तीस्ता जी : जी फिर मिलेंगे और बातचीत जारी रखेंगे